Justin Welby in conversation down under

Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby sat down to talk with Lynn Arnold in Adelaide, in front of an audience to celebrate 175 years of Adelaide’s Anglican diocese (region). Former Labor State Premier Arnold is now an Anglican minister, serving at St Peter’s Cathedral.

Lynn Arnold: We acknowledge the Kaurna people and their spiritual relationship with the land, as the traditional custodians of the Adelaide region. Well, it is a very great pleasure for me to be here tonight, Your Grace, to be in conversation with you. I’ve seen it in programs, everyone couched together, I’ve got this folder here to sort of remind me maybe this is a bit like This is Your Life or something that’s about to happen. A surprise-

Justin Welby, Archbishop of Canterbury: Yeah, it’s feeling a bit that way.

Lynn Arnold: By the way, Archbishop Geoffrey [Smith of Adelaide] did a lot of homework as to what the 175th is. I thought simply the 175th was a party, which we’re having a great party tonight. But you are the centesimus quintus Archbishop of Canterbury. Hundred and fifth. In your wonderful address just now, you spoke about a call and a mission for everyone. Now, can I turn that on you, as in your life, [what] is the call and the mission to you? I’m reading your biography on that.

I found two interesting things. One is that-

Justin Welby: That’s one more than even I found.

Lynn Arnold: You became a Christian at university, a time when many others are questioning their faith rather than coming to it. Secondly, after graduating, you worked successfully in the corporate world and despite the road ahead looking very rewarding, you opted out and started on the road to ordination. What were the call and mission that you were hearing in both of those phases?

Justin Welby: At university, I tried to learn to give short answers, but I’m usually bad at it. But at university, the call was a friend who took me along to a sermon in a church on a Sunday evening and which was about the key elements of Christian faith, about the kind of things I was talking about. And it was incredibly boring. I can’t remember a thing about it. And afterwards, we came out and he said, “What did you think about that?”

And I said, “Well… Very interesting.” And he said, “No, it wasn’t, it was really boring.” And we went to a restaurant, a cheap restaurant with students in Cambridge and talked and talked and talked. Then we went back to his rooms and he explained what Jesus had done for me. Living, dying on the cross, rising from the dead and what that meant for my life.

And it’s the first time.

I [did] go to church, a school chapel. I was at boarding school, a school chapel twice a day every day of term for 10 years. We were kind of submarine Christians in the family for a while because my parents were divorced and I was living with my dad. And when I say submarine Christians, I mean we surfaced once a year on Christmas Day. And then, we came to the surface to talk about God. But I’d gone through in chapel and the only interesting thing that happened in 10 years was the headmaster fell out of the pulpit.

I’d been between school and university working in Kenya and I’d found people for who, with no money, with nothing, for who Jesus was a real person, not just the historical figure.

And he explained it and late that evening, very late, just before the next day as it were, he said, “So what you want to do about this?”

And he expected me to say, “I’ll think about it.” And I just felt, I didn’t even know if it was true.

I said, “Let’s pray.” I prayed and I said, “God, I don’t even know if you exist. But if you do, I want you to be in charge of my life.” And something changed.

Second one; shorter answer. We were at church one evening, a big church in West London and there was a bloke there who was preaching, who’d been offered a job after he’d graduated in engineering in the States. He’d been offered a job in NASA at a time when the moon program was running, so very exciting. And he’d felt that God had called him to ministry. And it’s one of the very few times that I’ve had a very clear sense of what I want to do from God. Because normally, it sort of emerges.

But as he said that, I sensed that – I want to put it without sounding sort of hotline to God is your superpower – but I sensed God saying, “That’s what I want you to do.” I talked to Caroline on the way home and we spent a couple of… We went through the process. The first bishop I saw said, “I’ve interviewed more than a thousand potential candidates for ordination in my life and you don’t come in the top thousand.” And went on to say, “I can assure you, you have no future in the Church of England.” He has been proved entirely right.

I think actually he should have said, “I think the Church of England has no future with you in it.” But somehow, I ended up getting through the system and …

Lynn Arnold:

Well, thank you, that’s …

Justin Welby: …kicking and screaming.

Lynn Arnold: I wonder if that particular bishop is now the bishop of the outer Orkneys or something.

Justin Welby: No, exactly. He did die. It wasn’t anything to do with me.

Lynn Arnold: Just now and in your address, you’ve actually commented on Jesus, the living Jesus in history, related to you, then related to us. In your Easter sermon this year, you said, “Our greatest challenge is to live in a world where this new reality, Christ risen, is our central most determining reality.” And you went on the say, “Now, that means to live in a way that seeks justice, that values the vulnerable, that struggles for justice.” How do you see the Christian understanding of justice competing or latching with the world’s sense of justice?

Justin Welby: I think first that the Christian sense of justice is based on, is fundamentally found in the action of God that completely intermingles justice and mercy because at the heart of our understanding of the cross, and there are lots of different ways of looking exactly how the cross works. But at the heart of it is that God is so just that he cannot overlook sin, but he is so loving that he cannot ignore the desperate need of a sinner to find love, forgiveness, and hope of those. And that God through His own becoming human enables that extraordinary thing as it says in one of the Psalms that love and justice have met.

That is the ideal. It’s of judgment that is infallible and mercy that is unending. Mercy through love. Now, the world system of justice can aim for that, but with human fallibility, it won’t work. And I think there are two ways in which it particularly fails. First of all, when the issue is retribution, not reconciliation. Vengeance, in other words. It’s simply a substitute for personal vengeance, which in many ways is why you have courts and stuff in historic terms.

And secondly, when justice is partial or belongs to one group or another, and I mean with your political background, you will know that just government is almost unachievable because you don’t have infinite resources. And one of, I will guess when you were Premier, one of the hardest things to work out was what you’re going to do and rather what you’re not going to do that you want to do.

Lynn Arnold: Mm-hmm. Those people remember that when I was Premier, we had a remarkable lack of resources because of a certain economic collapse, but anyway.

Justin Welby: That’s what it is. Yeah. But that’s the key point, isn’t it? Do you then think that given the reality of lack of resources, which is true for so many places around the world at all times, and for every government at some point, how do you decide what you’re going to spend those resources on? Mrs. Thatcher, when prime minister, famously said on a number of occasions when a policy was put to her, “Will it help our people?”

And I’m not making a particular political point, I don’t belong to a political party, but what I would say is that’s not God’s justice. He, God, doesn’t say, “Will it help my people, our people?” God says, “Is this for the good of the world? Is this for the common good?” That’s where I think you find the tensions but also the idea.

Lynn Arnold: Now you mentioned in the context of that, that the church has to engage with the world. You used the phrase in the address, “We shouldn’t be circling the wagons and locking ourselves inside, separate from the world.” And I know from observation of Googling that you have very often made comments in to the public square, the face of the public square. But that public square is becoming a highly polarised one. And just today, according to the Weekend Australian, about just how polarised our society is. And you said, “We have not found a way of disagreeing without exclusion, without canceling the people.”

How should we be addressing this issue of a world which seems to want to build barriers and walls and exclude?

Justin Welby: One of the key things that Saint Paul says in writing to the Ephesians is that Jesus broke down the barriers that divide us, talking in that particular context between Jews and Gentiles. The vision of the New Testament that you find of the church that you find for example in John 17, in Jesus’s prayer, is of not everyone alike but everyone alight with love for one another. And that vision must lead the church into action in the world, that there’s no such thing as a non-political church.

Anglicare is a deeply political statement. Anglicare’s political statement is not pro-Liberal or pro-Labor or anything else. Anglicare’s political statement is that in a good society we should care for those who have no one to care for. We should help people who need help. That’s a profoundly political statement, as you know better than I do. And therefore, the church is always political. But it must not operate on the same political spectrum as politics and it’s not a criticism of politics. It must operate on God’s vision for a good society and seeking its example to demonstrate what that means at the local level. For instance, caring for people leaving the care system..

And I think speaking without judgmentalism about where there has to be change. One of the things when I do speak, I do speak on politics, firstly, I never use names because I don’t attack individuals but ideas or policies, I’m very certain of that. And secondly, I’m making it clear that being in government as a politician is one of the hardest things in the world. I think it’s one of the most difficult things you can ever do. And so, that one of the things I always say is, “Pray for governments,” as I pray for Liz Truss, for Boris Johnson, but we’re getting quite astray and we’ll have to change our Prime Ministers, but… Did I say that aloud?

But to pray. Because you are doing an impossible job. You can’t… Politicians need all the support they can get. I don’t judge or hate politicians. But the political implications of something like The Magnificat, “Throw down the mighty from their seats, lift up the humble and meek.” If there was ever political statement it’s that one.

Lynn Arnold: Sure, that’s right. Now, you mentioned also in this context and how the church can play a very significant role. You used the phrase, “The church has to be the pathfinder for society.” Now, this year you’ve had the first Lambeth Conference for 14 years and the theme of that was God’s church for God’s world. Walking, listening and witnessing together. And I saw the word walking, I was wondering if you did do The Lambeth Walk, but nevertheless.

And at the end of the conference, you said, “It’s been a very remarkable time and to be honest, has succeeded all the hopes I had.” And I must say that those of the archbishop and the bishops who came from here came back really enthused with what happened there. But what would you say to us? How should we as a diocese, as parishes, and as individual Christians, how should we be responding to what came out of those Lambeth discussions?

Justin Welby: I’m afraid I’m going to quote someone else but he’s quite a good quote, which is, Jesus. “Wash feet, love one another, love your enemies, love your neighbour.” And if you can find someone who’s not in any of those categories, you’re doing better than I. That’s the first four things and that’s done by God, the Father.

And love in the Bible is not an emotion, it is emotion expressed in action. It’s a desire for the well-being of the other without expectation of return for oneself. That’s the Christian revolution. I don’t get anywhere near it. But just an incidental anecdote, I was preaching in Bristol about eight years ago and I said something like that. I said from the pulpit, it was a full church and I said from the pulpit, “We’re all sinners, you’re sinners and I’m a sinner.” And one came out to me afterwards and said, “If I’d known you were a sinner, I wouldn’t have come.” But anyway…

But that’s the revolution, that’s the pathfinding. Love in action is what we’re called to. And that means that not only do we do, but through our words, we encourage others and our press to do, to come alongside and work with us. And sometimes we partner with people that have no sympathy with the faith yet. But when they see the love we have for one another, which is why unity, not unanimity, unity is so important.

When they see the love we have for one another, they begin to find themselves drawn as I was drawn by that friend to ask themselves, “Can this love of God, this something that can reach even me?”

Lynn Arnold: Unity but not unanimity.

Justin Welby: Yeah.

Lynn Arnold: It’s a very powerful way of putting it. We have a little time here and so, I’m going to have to leave out some of the other questions I have.

Justin Welby: It’s the great thing about these things. Just keep talking and you’ll skip all the difficult ones.

Lynn Arnold: Well, what you did tell me again, in your address tonight, the list of things we can worry about are endless. And I guess that’s something of the daunting thing we all feel, oh there’s just too much to get a handle on. Too much to worry about what can I do as a single little participant of that? Now, would you like to share with us a couple of keynote ones, a couple of main issues that you’d like to draw our attention to or have us leave tonight with these rumbling around in our mind about well, what am I going to think about this, what am I going to do about this?

Justin Welby: Yes, I would, but I have to think for a moment. A general point, we can only, I know this is going to sound very banal, but that’s part of my job. We can only do what we can do. Sorry, anecdote and then answer because another rule of being an Archbishop of Canterbury is you talk what you are thinking, what you need to say.

Lynn Arnold: I remember doing that as a politician.

Justin Welby: Some advantages. A friend of mine, an amazing friend of mine called Désiré Mukanirwa, who I first met when he was a parish priest in Goma which is a town in the Eastern Congo area. You’ve been there, as you know how poor it is and desperate. And I won’t go through all that but I was visiting him on one occasion. It was under siege from militias, they were about five kilometres outside the town and we had got some refugees in and we’re trying to feed them, that kind of stuff.

Went to a local refugee camp that had about 25,000 people there and was just the most desperate conditions you can imagine. And on the way back I said to him, “Désiré, how do you cope with this?” And he said, “I do what God gives me the resources to do and the rest is His part.”

I think that is one of the most profound things put so simply. And so, my answer to you is the indication of what God is calling you to do is what He gives you the resources to do. I mean sometimes we see a need and we pray for the resources. If they don’t come, don’t agonize, but see what you can do. That’s the first point.

Secondly, in terms of obvious things, the biggest thing we have to do is united prayer for the world to find afresh the truth and joy and love of Jesus Christ for those around us. Second, everyone can do that. Second, things you are already doing, like recognizing past sin in terms of indigenous people and seeking to do what is right. That is something that to one extent or another will affect most people. It’s conscious of where we’ve come from.

Third, there are so many things that come to our attention. We can’t stop the war in Ukraine and Russia, but we can pray for that. We can’t prevent people, [or] the situation, we can’t ease the situation with Taiwan and China, but we can love those who the world does not consider worth valu[ing]. We can love those who come from places like China or Taiwan and have arrived either as visitors or as those immigrating into this extraordinary and marvellous country or who comes as refugees and need our help.

I can’t really be that specific, but I can say from absolute certain experience, and you’re doing it already with wonderful things like Anglicare, from which I’ve been learning a huge amount. From certain experience and do what God gives you the resources to do. That’s an indication of a call.

Lynn Arnold: Well, thank you. I think that’s a wonderful message on which to end our conversation tonight because I think that really says all for all of us. Justin, thank you so much for indeed for being a part of this conversation. It’s been a privilege for me to be a part of this and for all of us to be here sharing this time with you. And God bless you in your new ministry.

Justin Welby: Thank you. But before we finish, thanks, I’d like to give you 50 trees.

Lynn Arnold: 50 trees.

Justin Welby: 50 trees for the diocese. Actually, it’s a serious thing. We have planted 50, that we’ve purchased the planting of 50 trees and would like to give a certificate of donation of that-

…as a sign of our common work around climate change. And that’s an example of using what resources we have to try and make it happen, so if I may present this to you on behalf of the diocese.

Thank you very much. Let me give you a very short last challenge. By this time tomorrow, someone asked me about it earlier, so I’m going to say if someone, where are we? Saturday. If someone said to you on Monday, someone you just met who was not a churchgoer, “What do you do over the weekend?” You say, “Oh, I went to this dinner and this late, middle-aged pong speaking to speaking about God and then went to church on Sunday morning, I had to do or evening.” And they say, “Church? Why? God, why?” I want you by tomorrow evening with someone else to be able to tell the other and listen to them telling you that, in less than one minute without using any religious jargon at all why you’re a Christian. Good luck.

Image: Justin Welby Credit: Diocese of Bristol