Can a conservative Christian work in an avowedly inclusive organisation? in a leadership role? Can a non-Muslim teach in an Islamic school? Some people can manage it, others can’t, Adel Salman, President of the Islamic Council of Victoria told Patricia Karvelas on Radio National.
The Islamic Community in Australia has been marginalised and community members are undoubtedly discriminated against in employment and services. Salman is able to speak from experience on the issues of being a religious minority in a society with different values and beliefs.
Karvelas: “Andrew Thorburn was forced to choose between Essendon and his volunteer position as chairman of the City on [a] Hill Church that is aligned to traditional Anglican teachings. Were the values of the church and the club’s diversity and inclusion policies incompatible?”
Salman (pictured): “Well, I think the church holds … mainstream, Christian, positions and, and Islamic positions on marriage and on sexuality, et cetera. These are clearly in conflict with some of the positions taken by some organisations like football clubs on diversity inclusion. But it does not mean that someone like Andrew could not perform the role of CEO. He has his own personal beliefs, but as long as his conduct is in line with the values of the organisation, then I don’t see that needs to be an either-or situation.”
Karvelas: “It’s an interesting point you make. Does the fact though, that he was the chairman of the City of the Hill Church change that? Yes. To be a member and to go to church or to the mosque is one thing, but to actually be the chairman is a position of power and authority and, and is a whole different level of, of seniority, Right?”
Salman: “Look, there’s no question, he’s a leader. He’s a leader in that organisation, but he’s not the one delivering the sermons. He’s not the one providing pastoral care to the, the worshipers. He’s running an organization as a chair and he’s got a governance role. I don’t think that would preclude him from being able to do his role with any other organisation. The question comes down to how do you reconcile one’s personal religious beliefs and their ability to do a particular role for an organisation? And I don’t think it needed to be a situation where one had to choose between those two. I think you can actually reconcile both. There may be some situations where you can’t, but I think in this case, I don’t think Andrew was given that opportunity. He wasn’t treated fairly to make that decision and to be able to, you know, prove himself as either being able to do the role or not. And he may have had to step down himself down the track because he found the two situations were irreconcilable. But I don’t think he was given that that choice. And I think he was forced out and that’s unfortunate for him.”
Karvelas: “… So let’s talk about your religion when it comes to Islam. How do you see the future of, for instance, Muslims n senior football positions?”
Salman: “Well, that’s, that is exactly the question because, and that’s the precinct that we’re all concerned about. The vast majority of Muslims would have positions on marriage and sexuality that are very much consistent with the business taken by, you know, Christian churches and certainly [by] this church in question. But that does not mean that a practising Muslim could not work for an organization that actually might celebrate gay pride, for example. You can reconcile those things, those two things. It comes back to also to the individual. Some individuals might choose that is too much of a gap for me between my personal values and the values of the organisation. And I might choose not to work for that organisation, but I’m given the choice and I’m not discriminated against because of my personal view.”
Listeners raised the issue of Catholic schools not hiring homosexual teachers. Karvelas asked “Why are they allowed to exclude but Essendon and football club wasn’t?”
Salman: “Well, I think it comes back to the issue of conduct and belief. So if someone’s conduct is in contravention or conflicts with, for example, the code of conduct or the policies of a religious organisation being a religious school for example, then that clearly is an issue. If however, someone holds personal beliefs, but his conduct is in line with the code of conduct or the contract expectations of that organisation, then I don’t think that necessarily is an issue. And I know for example, that there are people working for Islamic schools [and] their personal beliefs might conflict with the Islamic position on marriage, for example, but they’re able to uphold the ethos of the Islamic school and that doesn’t conflict. And so they’re able to work in that environment. If they’re not able to, then in all likelihood, they would have to probably leave because that’s not the environment for them.”
Karvelas: “Do you understand though, why people, particularly LGBTIQ people, feel that there’s a set of rules for them when they want to work, for instance, as teachers in schools, but there the, there’s an outcry for people with religious beliefs for senior positions in a place like Essendon – that there seem to be two sets of rules?”
Salman: “I can understand that. I think it comes down to the question of balancing human rights. I think as Tim Costello talked about yesterday and others have spoken about, there needs to be a proper conversation and a mature conversation about the balancing of, these rights. You know, Australia has recognized the fundamental freedom to a human right of religious freedom. I don’t think Australia has quite, reconciled how that manifests in the workplace and other situations. I think we need to have that conversation, whether we have a bill of rights or we have some other mechanism, to be able to resolve that issue of potentially conflicting rights being balanced. And I think that’s the issue that we all have to address and I’m hoping that out of this situation we can start having that conversation.
Karvelas: “Yes, we do need to be all more respectful to each other for sure. And hopefully we’ve provided an example of that Adele having a very, very respectful conversation on the radio.”
In the “Salman world,” organisations can be seen to have accommodated those they differ from. There is flexibility by both organisations and individuals. In his school discussion, Islamic schools employ teachers who are not Islamic, may not share all the attitudes to sexuality or family of that religion but uphold a school’s ethos. To work in an organisation, similarly, a person would need to uphold that body’s ethos, for example as Thorburn did at NAB, having the bank support and promote LGBTQIA events and activities.
Some people can be this flexible. Others can’t, so some degree of sorting is required.
An example of beginning a conversation
An example of beginning a good conversation, a public one is a Christian journalist, Anthony Segaert’s opinion piece in the SMH, “I’ve lost faith that Australia knows how to discuss religion.”
“I go to an inner-city Anglican church – a mainstream evangelical church not dissimilar to City on a Hill, where the pastors wear jeans, we sing songs written this century, and sexual minorities of all genders and backgrounds have found a home. Among my close friends, colleagues and family are people of a variety of different faiths, sexualities and beliefs. I see the real beauty of a world in which people can choose how to live.”