The Presbyterian Church of Australia in NSW (PCNSW) General Assembly voted in favour of an overture (motion) that women can not be elders, today. The vote passed 136 to 61. The meeting took place at PLC Sydney in Croydon.
Technically, the decision is not final. The General Assembly also voted that the (sustained) passed overture must be sent down to all regional presbyteries for a vote. Presbyterians have a process called The Barrier Act, which calls for presbyteries to vote for or against the overture unamended. If a majority of presbyteries vote for the overture, it will return to the General Assembly next time it meets. If it is passed by the next assembly, it becomes part of the church code (law). Given today’s overwhelming vote this decision is vanishingly unlikely to be overturned.
The General Assembly (GA) is the Presbyterian form of Church parliament. Today’s debate began with a vote to accept the report of an Elders Consultation Special Committee, which was set up to ensure there was sufficient consultation on the topic. This capped a several-year legal delay on the debate over women elders in NSW due to a concern raised that the NSW government’s Work Health and Safety Act would be breached. This involved a phone call to an official of the Assembly in 2023, alerting them that deliberating on the topic at the GA meeting might be a “triggering event” that would be captured by NSW safety legislation.
A paper called “Healthy Complementarianism,” was commissioned by the Assembly in 2021 and produced by a Committee for Elders and Deacons convened by Murray Smith of Christ College, the PCNSW seminary. The overture (motion) to move to male-only elders was introduced by Murray Smith, making the case for male-only elders. UPDATE in a comment on FB, Smith summarised his approach “My two speeches emphasised the dignity and value of both women and men made in God’s image, our mutual interdependence and complementarity, and the many ways women and men serve together.” His second speech introduced a later overture/motion seeking to have women as associate members of some key committees. Smith describes “godly male eldership” and “women and men as coheirs and fellow workers, actively serving together in the life of the church” as “equally biblical and equally important.”
Here are a few from a long list of speakers.
Hazel Nisbet spoke, apologising to the female elders in the room for the difficult position they are in.
Mark Adams from Randwick spoke against sustaining the overture. He is discussing how complementarianism is about men and women working together for governance, as seen in eldership. Conversely, he believes that positions of authority held by one person should be a man.
Shane Gooch, the minister for Revesby, finished his speech for the overture by saying that he felt he would be negatively impacted if the motion didn’t pass. He is of the opinion that allowing women to remain elders is to disobey God.
Stephanie Schwarz spoke against the overture, noting it as a secondary theological issue and one which could cause considerable harm.
The GA meeting today featured a sometimes tense debate, which was not aided by the front table not being across their standing orders.
Murray Smith, in his right of reply, said the meeting had spoken the truth in love. He addressed the female elders – pointing to another overture to be put forward to have male and female deacons and deaconesses. In the courts of the church.
Murray Smith said, “This motion makes no comment on the service of elders who have served and preserves the service of existing female elders.”
The Presbyterian Church of Australia has two types of elders who supervise a congregation: Ruling Elders who lead, and Teaching Elders or Ministers, who teach as well as lead. Today’s vote was to decide whether ruling elders should be male.
The rule that PCA teaching elders be male was passed by the 1991 General Assembly of Australia, the national body. However, the decision about whether ruling elders should be male only or male and female was left to the denomination’s state bodies.
The Other Cheek commends the PCNSW for making the General Assembly available on livestream and allowing the public into the PLC hall.
Image: PLC Croydon in Inner West Sydney, the site of the General Assembly. Image Credit: PLC
This is absolutely ridiculous!!!
For a family that has been with the church for over 4 generations, it is one family less for this lot of tools!!
There are a lot of sad, disappointed people after this vote yesterday. Personally, those words aren’t strong enough. I am devastated. This is not a move in line with the Jesus of the New Testament.
An absolute disgrace.
I was an elder and defender of the Presy church. No longer. I’ll never set foot inside a Presy church ever again. A sad day.
Why are they sad? There must be many more who are rejoicing that the Presbyterian Church, in a day of apostacy, is returning to the word of God. Jesus says, “Those who love me obey my word.” which makes sense. The only way Christians witness to non-Christians effectually is by obeying his word. The Lord forbids a woman to teach and have authority over the man. Why do some women question this? Is it out of selfish ambition that they do so? People who go into the ministry to satisfy selfish ambition are a curse to themselves and the Church.
What arrogance to think that the Presbyterian Assembly has a monopoly on understanding and obeying the word of God.
I have no doubt my salvation is secure even though I disagree strongly with the decision.
You would do well to show love to those you disagree with rather than trivialise someone’s different conviction on this issue and crow about the result. The Presbyterian church will fade into insignificance.
Thé Presbyterian church in NZ has had women ministers since 1955 Women have been moderators elders etc
What century are you Aussies living in?
Worship attendance in the N.Z, Presbyterian Church has declined more than in Australia. It has halved in 20 yrs despite population growth. Offhand I think the Australian Church has declined %30 in the same period.
There are three groups of Presbyterian Churches in NZ and the overall church history is very different to Australia. For example, in NZ there was not the major decline in numbers after the formation of the Uniting Church in 1977. I further note that in NZ there are at least 40 women who have been ordained into the NZ Anglican Church. Some, since 1989, as Bishops.
However, as in Australia, NZ is becoming increasingly secular, so it’s fair to say that worship attendance generally is falling in both nations.
I thank God most sincerely for not being a member of that Church. In their own way they are imitating the Sydney Anglicans.
I have been a Presbyterian for around 80 years although I currently attend an Anglican Church in Sydney with my wife.
The outcome of the vote on Women Elders is most disappointing. I do not believe the theological arguments against women preaching are very strong and are more of a cultural nature. This issue is certainly not fundamental to the message of Jesus in the New Testament.
We occasionally have a women preach at our Anglican Church in Sydney.
Women have gone largely unrecognized in the church more generally. The church is actually run by women but few are elevated to senior positions unfortunately.
As the Chinese say “ Women hold up half the sky”.
The recent consultation survey results on the proposed ban of female elders in the NSW/ACT Presbyterian Church stand in stark contrast to the vote on Wednesday. It is very difficult to discern why they bothered with the consultation at all.
I do of course understand the survey wasn’t a vote, it wasn’t asking people ‘should we make this change?’ It was an effort to ensure the church was following WHS guidelines. Nevertheless, the results were so truly striking that one might have (stupidly) assumed that those voting on this matter might have taken the results into consideration.
Now, considering that each time this motion to ban female elders has been voted on in recent years, it has failed to pass, and yet this year, passes by a more than 2:1 margin, just after a survey revealed how little support the move actually had amongst everyone except ministers, is nothing short of extraordinary.
12% of church members/adherents, 3% of deacons, and 14% of elders felt the change would have a positive impact upon the quality of church leadership. Those numbers are not typos.
10% of members/adherents and elders, and 9% of deacons, felt the change would have a positive impact on their emotional and/or psychological well-being. Those numbers are not typos either.
It must be noted that whilst churches with one or more female elders comprise 20% of the churches in the NSW/ACT Presb. church, responses from these churches comprised 31% of responses. Even so, the move clearly had very little support amongst church members/adherents and deacons, and not much more amongst elders, who are the ones directly impacted.
And yet, in their wisdom, the Assembly on Wednesday, voted to strip that 20% of their right to serve God as they understood the Bible on this matter, and removed the chance of becoming an elder from EVERY single women in the entire NSW/ACT Presb. Church.
Those who voted for this proposal because they believed it was right (as opposed to those who voted for it out of sheer emotional and psychological exhaustion) could ask themselves these two questions:
Q1: Can I be absolutely certain that scholars of the calibre of F.F.Bruce, John Stott, N.T.Wright, Gordon Fee, Mike Bird, Craig Keener etc etc etc are so absolutely incompetent that they have (or had) been utterly mistaken on what the Bible says on gender and ministry for virtually their entire lives?
Q2: Since my teaching has obviously been so utterly derelict that the majority of the people I have been teaching week after week from the pulpit clearly have been utterly unpersuaded thus far that my view on this matter is what the Bible actually says, would it not be appropriate and proper for me to resign as a minister and seek a more suitable profession?
Allan, I’d love to hear your take on Gen 3:16.